Money, profit, work
So there was a poll about making money from fan work. I ticked some boxes but then I thought and I'm not sure.
The thing is, if I start from first principles I get different answers than if I start from... thinking of it as fandom. From community standards? I've absorbed a lot along the way about what Should and Shouldn't happen, and when I look at it straight on it... doesn't feel as obvious as when I'm writing 'No money no harm' on a disclaimer.
I think the important thing for me is everyone gets fair swaps for their own work. I'm not comfortable with saying fan work 'should' be free, because it is work, same as house cleaning or doing the shopping is work, same as writing original fiction is work. Do work, get something for it. Only fair.
( Read more... )
So, anyway... I'm thinking the wall between money and no-money is currently controlled by the people that got there first... but in several cases by now the fans, the followers, have been doing more work for longer. And there has to be some way to... lower the wall? Make it into stairs? We start where nobody even wants to pay us, we wander along and make stuff people want to buy, we maybe end up making the TV show one day. Steps.
The people that got there first obviously deserve money for work too. They did big work everyone wants, they get fair swaps for it.
If the way we're using their work is fair... and we're putting new work in... that's transformative use, yesno? And then... fair swaps for our work is fair... we could get money?
That feels uncomfortable, yet follows from the logic. Why there that gap?
After writing all the rest of this I came back to that question and I think the answer is: Because we know we're already getting work for work from the exact people likely to also give money. That's like asking for pay twice. From people we like. When we're already getting way more than we give (because we're always outnumbered and same work each will always add up to everyone getting very much work in for small work out, which is pretty cool really, and unlike much to do with your actual finite resource money. Yesno?).
( Read more... )
And also: Bugger. Just found a logic that agrees with the anti-DL crowd.
( Read more... )
For other things, where you swap tangible Things for tangible Money, then I have in the past treated that as straightfoward. ( Read more... )
But the thing is, tapes or t-shirts or badges, I thought of it as paying for the things and not the content. The content belong to TPTB. And that's why 'money' and 'profit' be not the same things at all. Money for these things? Fair enough. Profit from them? Be profit from TPTBs work.
( Read more... )
The lurker pyramid is a perennial iceberg in this equation. Too many lurkers to too few posts and comms crumple because the posters aren't getting anything back they didn't put in. Conversations with two people are more likely to last than conversations two people have in front of a hundred who aren't playing. Because, dude, freaky. And also, they're getting stuff out of it but putting none in, and there's only so long that feels fair.
I think the law puts a big line in between 'money' and 'no money' conditions. I do not know sufficient there.
But I can see that people do work for money and give money to work, or people do work for work, and that's not actually the same thing as doing work for free. And I don't think we work for free around here. I think when people feel they're working for free they go someplace else where they can get something back. And I think when people feel they're working for free (no feedback, no similar stuff from fellow workers) and somebody else is making money out of it... you won't see them for dust.
The thing is, if I start from first principles I get different answers than if I start from... thinking of it as fandom. From community standards? I've absorbed a lot along the way about what Should and Shouldn't happen, and when I look at it straight on it... doesn't feel as obvious as when I'm writing 'No money no harm' on a disclaimer.
I think the important thing for me is everyone gets fair swaps for their own work. I'm not comfortable with saying fan work 'should' be free, because it is work, same as house cleaning or doing the shopping is work, same as writing original fiction is work. Do work, get something for it. Only fair.
( Read more... )
So, anyway... I'm thinking the wall between money and no-money is currently controlled by the people that got there first... but in several cases by now the fans, the followers, have been doing more work for longer. And there has to be some way to... lower the wall? Make it into stairs? We start where nobody even wants to pay us, we wander along and make stuff people want to buy, we maybe end up making the TV show one day. Steps.
The people that got there first obviously deserve money for work too. They did big work everyone wants, they get fair swaps for it.
If the way we're using their work is fair... and we're putting new work in... that's transformative use, yesno? And then... fair swaps for our work is fair... we could get money?
That feels uncomfortable, yet follows from the logic. Why there that gap?
After writing all the rest of this I came back to that question and I think the answer is: Because we know we're already getting work for work from the exact people likely to also give money. That's like asking for pay twice. From people we like. When we're already getting way more than we give (because we're always outnumbered and same work each will always add up to everyone getting very much work in for small work out, which is pretty cool really, and unlike much to do with your actual finite resource money. Yesno?).
( Read more... )
And also: Bugger. Just found a logic that agrees with the anti-DL crowd.
( Read more... )
For other things, where you swap tangible Things for tangible Money, then I have in the past treated that as straightfoward. ( Read more... )
But the thing is, tapes or t-shirts or badges, I thought of it as paying for the things and not the content. The content belong to TPTB. And that's why 'money' and 'profit' be not the same things at all. Money for these things? Fair enough. Profit from them? Be profit from TPTBs work.
( Read more... )
The lurker pyramid is a perennial iceberg in this equation. Too many lurkers to too few posts and comms crumple because the posters aren't getting anything back they didn't put in. Conversations with two people are more likely to last than conversations two people have in front of a hundred who aren't playing. Because, dude, freaky. And also, they're getting stuff out of it but putting none in, and there's only so long that feels fair.
I think the law puts a big line in between 'money' and 'no money' conditions. I do not know sufficient there.
But I can see that people do work for money and give money to work, or people do work for work, and that's not actually the same thing as doing work for free. And I don't think we work for free around here. I think when people feel they're working for free they go someplace else where they can get something back. And I think when people feel they're working for free (no feedback, no similar stuff from fellow workers) and somebody else is making money out of it... you won't see them for dust.